tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4987271399653590272.post7154608204248887379..comments2023-10-29T19:03:11.547-04:00Comments on A Pilgrim's Progress: Salaried Pastors Are Not Evil MenErichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07306854704766653209noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4987271399653590272.post-52693640318442354552010-11-18T15:39:26.687-05:002010-11-18T15:39:26.687-05:00Blair,
You are not being disrespectful. It is go...Blair,<br /><br />You are not being disrespectful. It is good to have spirited, gracious discussion and debate. We are brothers in Christ - that unites.<br /><br />I agree with you that pastors are evangelists. However, if that is the case then we are all evangelists. Using that logic, then, we would all receive salaries.<br /><br />Interestingly, in Ephesians 4 when Paul discusses gifts to the church, he mentions evangelists as different from pastor-teachers.<br /><br />I also believe you are making an unhealthy clergy-laity divide. Where in scripture do we see pastors doing anything different from non-pastors? Pastors were to shepherd, but we are all to do this. Pastors were elders. Elders came alongside other Christians and encouraged them to grow in Christ together.<br /><br />I do think your argument is in large part culturally driven. The problem with this is that cultural values are subjective. If the bible is true, authoritative, and sufficient, then we will get all we need from its pages.<br /><br />As for Acts 20, we'll have to differ on interpretation. But at least in that passage we know he is talking to elders. In I Cor. 9, pastors are nowhere mentioned. Evangelists traveled around, could not hold down jobs, and therefore had a right to support. Elders remained in one place and therefore could hold down a regular job.<br /><br />Where in the bible do we see any pastors who did not work regular jobs but instead were paid salaries by churches? I can't find one place.<br /><br />You sum up by saying, "I'm seeing more Biblical support for salaried pastors, than not." Where is this support? Where specifically do you see salaries mentioned as it refers specifically to pastors? <br /><br />I agree that pastors should provide for their families. This is why they should have regular jobs. This is also why churches should have multiple pastors and why everyone should be ministering.<br /><br />As for salaries, I just don't see them anywhere.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07306854704766653209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4987271399653590272.post-44973728465269782132010-11-18T12:51:43.317-05:002010-11-18T12:51:43.317-05:00I'm not trying to be disrespectful or argue! B...I'm not trying to be disrespectful or argue! But Paul makes it clear he simply doesn't want to hinder the gospel. If pastors are hindering the gospel, then I agree with you. Otherwise, there is Biblical support.blair nicolehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17806934596914354874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4987271399653590272.post-80082656528149184922010-11-18T12:38:57.740-05:002010-11-18T12:38:57.740-05:00In that passage Paul is speaking of those who prea...In that passage Paul is speaking of those who preach the gospel. Pastors are evangelists.<br /><br />"What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make full use of my rights as a preacher of the gospel." -1 cor. 9:18<br /><br />I think that makes it pretty clear that they are rights. Not that we should always fight for our rights and take them, but if a church offers, there is nothing wrong with accepting.<br /><br />Along with that, the Biblical basis for my argument was that a man is the head of his family (Eph. 5), and it's his role and responsibility to support them. This doesn't apply to Paul and others who don't have that responsibility.<br /><br />Laity are not called to be pastors. I just say that referring to Scripture where people have different callings and gifts. That is not artificial.<br /><br />And receiving monetary gifts occasionally along with other support-I don't see how that's any different than a regular salary. Either way the needs are being met. If the pastor is spending the money as he should be, on food and shelter and providing for himself/family, how is that any different than the way they were supported Biblically?<br /><br />Maybe my argument was somewhat culturally driven, but culture does make a difference in understanding and applying the Bible. The bible was definitely at the core of my thoughts.<br /><br />As for Acts 20-Paul says this after talking about coveting and how he hasn't asked for anything from them. He's reminding them of all the things he's done and how much he loved and cared for them. That one verse doesn't counter all the other Biblical evidence. It's more blessed to give than to receive-he's trying to remind them of this. So that they help others without expecting anything in return. He's using himself as an example of not expecting anything in return-not saying Pastors/preachers/evangelists/whatever shouldn't receive support. It's talking about the character of the church. It's saying to help those in need. And if that is the Pastor...<br /><br /><br /><br />I'm seeing more Biblical support for salaried pastors, than not.blair nicolehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17806934596914354874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4987271399653590272.post-50594967467209012532010-11-18T11:19:42.829-05:002010-11-18T11:19:42.829-05:00Blair,
Thank you for commenting on the blog.
I&#...Blair,<br /><br />Thank you for commenting on the blog.<br /><br />I'm familiar with the I Corinthians 9 passage. Paul is speaking about traveling apostolic workers and evangelists. He's not talking about pastors/elders/overseers. Paul never mentions them in that passage; therefore, it doesn't apply.<br /><br />The remainder of your argument (and I say this respectfully) appears to be pragmatic, traditional, and culturally driven. I don't see any biblical basis for what you are saying about the pastoral role and salaries.<br /><br />In Acts 20, Paul is speaking to the elders from the church in Ephesus. After reminding them that he worked with his hands, he told them that Jesus said that "it is more blessed to give than receive."<br /><br />You wrote this, "And it's crossing the line to just flat out call salaried pastoring an "unbiblical practice" when there is nothing to back that up." I believe I can back it up. When we look in the New Testament, there is absolutely no evidence of pastoral salaries. Pastors may have received monetary gifts here and there, but regular salaries are a foreign concept.<br /><br />You also wrote, "Oh, and laity are not called to be pastors. Many of them do their job, but their job is far different from the load that pastors are called to do." This is the case if we believe in a professional pastorate that artificially separates the clergy and laity. Again, this is foreign to scripture. <br /><br />My point is to try to be biblical. I would like to hear pastors who receive salaries actually defend this practice from scripture. So far I haven't heard anything convincing.<br /><br />I'm not condemning the practice. However, we should at least be willing to admit that it has no biblical basis.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07306854704766653209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4987271399653590272.post-53827004123261193212010-11-18T10:58:49.650-05:002010-11-18T10:58:49.650-05:00Where do you get that pastors shouldn't be sal...Where do you get that pastors shouldn't be salaried? 1 Corinthians 9 makes it clear that they SHOULD be. Paul may have denied his rights, but that doesn't mean every pastor is to do so.<br /><br />Paul was an apostle, unmarried, without a family, who traveled around on his own. Had he had a family to take care of, and stayed in one city, it may have been different.<br /><br />If a pastor is married and has children, it's his responsibility to take care of and support that family. So the options are to be in the ministry full time, and salaried, or to be part time while doing other work to support the family. However, that not only leaves no time to spend with that family, but it takes away from his responsibilities as a pastor. Shepherding his flock is nearly impossible when working another full time job. Being a pastor is a full time job in itself, and there are very few people who can work 2 full time jobs. It's just not possible.<br /><br />It's much better to be a full time, salaried pastor (fully serving your family and flock, while the church is fulfilling their responsibility) than to be a Shepherd that can't be constantly guarding and shepherding his flock, and a husband/father that is not involved in his family.<br /><br />Not to mention that the apostles did receive support-food, shelter, etc. In todays culture, that means a salary, unless your church is literally going to buy your every meal and let your family move around from house to house to sleep. Culture is totally different today, and while you have to be careful, that HAS to be taken into consideration. <br /><br />If there is a problem today with this issue today, it's most often with the church, not the pastor. The churches should be supporting the pastor, and typically that means a salary. But it's often turned around to seem that a pastor is greedy or unfair when wanting/needing support, when in actuality it's a problem with the church not doing or wanting to do all that they should.<br /><br />Maybe some people like yourself can drop your salary and still support your family somehow, but that doesn't mean everyone can, or should. And it's crossing the line to just flat out call salaried pastoring an "unbiblical practice" when there is nothing to back that up. <br /><br /><br />Oh, and laity are not called to be pastors. Many of them do their job, but their job is far different from the load that pastors are called to do.blair nicolehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17806934596914354874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4987271399653590272.post-45511849286766402822010-11-17T17:35:04.051-05:002010-11-17T17:35:04.051-05:00Arthur,
There does seem to be a sort of co-depend...Arthur,<br /><br />There does seem to be a sort of co-dependency between the salaried pastor and the laity. He depends on them for a salary; they depend on him for ministry.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07306854704766653209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4987271399653590272.post-20662023517714177442010-11-17T17:16:16.386-05:002010-11-17T17:16:16.386-05:00Most of the salaried pastors I know are good guys ...Most of the salaried pastors I know are good guys who really want to serve the church and are culturally and traditionally conditioned to assume that the way to do that is to become a full-time preacher. I cast more aspersions on the "laity" that is content to pay someone else to do the work of ministry instead of doing that work themselves.Arthur Sidohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03848508095612688493noreply@blogger.com